@natacha it's OK, you aren't bothering me, I wouldn't be on a site with comments if I didn't want dissent
As the work women did (in some cases the work only women could do) was devalued (motherhood, breastfeeding), automated (housework, factories, typists) or outsourced (childcare) new labor efficiencies were born, that productivity should have resulted in the increase of the cost of labor in the main paid labor market (that which was previously men's) but it didn't, that's what my post is about
@Fourteen unfortunately I think what you are saying is strongly biased . The job pool always involved men and women You might mean decision capacity in capitalist work environment was previously held mostly by men and now is partially shared with some women. Otherwise women have been working at all levels of society for a very long time, often without recognition. Maybe check your history.
Only point I agree with you breast feeding cannot be automatized.
@natacha I looked up some labor statistics to try and be objective about this
Year:Single women in employment %:married women in employment %
Then the data isn't differentiated by relationship status but hovers around 75% for all working age women
To be clear, the labor market I'm discussing is the paid labor market (i.e, the one ran by capitalists) and by value I mean financial value
I know women have been working but there's a clear increase over time
@natacha have *always been working
and to clarify once more, by a clear increase I mean an increase in their participation in the capitalist labor market
Also now I have character limit to play with, source:
@Fourteen Ok I do not want to be picky but very sick to hear "women did not work before instead of ""Women weren't recognised/paid for their work" first paragraph of the article you cite says:
"Of course, these statistics somewhat understate the contributions of married women to the economy beyond housekeeping and childrearing, since women’s work in the home often included work in family businesses and the home production of goods, such as agricultural products, for sale." 1/2
@natacha I didn't say women never worked, in fact in another reply to you I recognize they have always worked, though I can see how "doubling the labor market" can be read like that
Yes that does muddle the stats a bit, but there's a strong enough visible trend that I believe the point still stands, do you have a better source on women and their participation in the paid labor market? I'm sure one does exist as I only found this from a cursory google
@Fourteen Maybe you should find comparative studies looking at men and their participation in the paid labor market, and perhaps you will find that the assumption that most men work for a paid job doesn't not stand over time.
If women are working in a capitalist system they are part of the labor force, were they paid or not, or slightly paid and not counted. Not admitting this is reproducing biases.
@natacha can you provide evidence of that? I'm willing to discuss it but I've provided some evidence that you've dismissed on shaky grounds, if you provide something solid in return (america, 1900s, by gender, I'm sure it's out there) I will happily engage with this
@Fourteen sorry I'm not american. But maybe you'd like to read James C.Scott Homo Domesticus
And for the feminist perspective you can take a look at Sylvia Federici: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvia_Federici
Caliban and the Witch: Women, the Body and Primitive Accumulation.
@natacha neither am I, America is just a good example of this process
With respect, I am not going to read two books when a set of labor statistics would suffice, if you don't want to provide that that's OK, but there's little more for us to discuss in this thread
@Fourteen In France for example 80% of population was rural until mid past century, and there was no official status for a women on a farm (this only was gained in 1980 btw). These women were obviously not counted in any stats and certainly working for the capitalist labor market. So were all the women 2 generation above who from 14 years on were working in houses where they also lived don't think they were counted either.. etc... etc...
@natacha OK, that case may be different, though I find the assertion that because they weren't counted they /must/ have been in the capitalist labor system a bit shaky, still the American evidence I linked stands
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